Twister (guest) 23 Jan 2013 01:32
Aniseed essential oil is as effective as star anise and needs to be added.
Oilahuasca Activators / Discussion
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Twister (guest) 23 Jan 2013 01:32
bluegrass this makes sense, as i find there is a very specific middle point between to much cayenne pepper and to little to help activation best.
Hi Bluegrass,
No, that post is not me. I always post as myself, not as a guest.
I'm currently working on researching activation formulas that are based on berberine. It has do date been the most powerful activator I am aware of. Formulas using berberine have activated elemicin at elemicin doses as small as 20 mg for some people.
Berberine has shed new light on activation theory. It very potently inhibits CYP2D6, and also inhibits CYP2C9 and to a lesser degree CYP3A4. This inhibition is proven in both live human test subjects, as well as in vitro lab tests. So it's rock solid reliable data. Tests also show it has no effect on CYP2E1, which is good.
It appears that major allylbenzene inactivation routes are O-demethylation (for compounds like elemicin and myristicin) and O-demethylenation (for compounds like safrole and myristicin). CYP2D6 is notorious for both O-demethylating and O-demethylenating hundreds of compounds. Once an allylbenzene is O-demethylated or O-demethylenated, it becomes extremely difficult for 1'-hydroxylation to take place. So we need to knock out all enzymes capable of O-demethylating or O-demethylenating allylbenzenes. Enzymes known to have these actions are CYP2C9, CYP2D6, CYP3A4 and some others. CYP2E1 doesn't appear to have this action on allylbenzenes. CYP2E1 is only known to 1'-hydroxylate allylbenzenes. That's why CYP2E1 appears to be so beneficial to induce.
One of the good things about using berberine is that it doesn't color up the experience. Most of the other inhibitors that have been shown to have some success such as black pepper, calamus oil, etc., have their own effects, and will color up the experience.
i find there is a very specific middle point between to much cayenne pepper and to little to help activation best.
As has been noted, cayenne pepper (which contains capsaicin) has been both beneficial and detrimental, depending on dosage. Unfortunately, I don't know of any reliable enzyme tests performed on human test subjects that give any real evidence on it's effects in humans. Perhaps some exist, but I haven't found them. All I know of are in vitro tests and some in vivo tests performed on animals, which may not at all apply to humans. Some tests in live rats show it inhibits CYP3A4 and also induces CYP2E1 and CYP3A4. CYP2E1 induction is good. CYP3A4 induction is not good. But humans are not rats. It may have very different effects in humans. If anyone knows of any enzyme effects proven in human test subjects please post about it. That could help us better understand how cayenne pepper works.
The proven stimulant effects that capsaicin has on the human central nervous system are definitely synergistic with psychedelics in general. Capsaicin can moderately boost the effects of most psychedelics if taken after the onset. So this might be one reason for cayenne pepper's perceived effectiveness as an activator. It may actually be more of a synergistic effect rather than an activation effect.
My current research is moving away from supplements that are not proven inhibitors/inducers in human test subjects. So I'm not focusing on capsaicin, unless new data is available. There's just too many unknowns on it's effects in humans.
Piperine has been recently shown to inhibit CYP2E1 in human test subjects. This is probably the reason why whole black pepper is less effective for activation than filtered black pepper tea is. Piperine is a very potent inhibitor of CYP3A4. So a small amount is good, but as the dosage increases it starts inhibiting CYP2E1, which is not good. Filtered black pepper tea contains only a little bit of piperine because of it's very poor water solubility. At this time it's not known why filtered black pepper tea is better than whole black pepper. It's assume that there is another ingredient in black pepper that is a potent activator, and that piperine's presence is muddying the waters. However, it could be that piperine is the sole activator, and that by using filtered tea one simply limits the dosage of the piperine to a level small enough that it inhibits CYP3A4 without also inhibiting CYP2E1. More research needs to be done.
Berberine's inhibition of CYP3A4 is not that great. It needs an admixture to help knock out CYP3A4, but it needs to be one that doesn't also knock out CYP2E1. Small doses of piperine might do the trick. I will research combining small amounts of piperine with berberine, using piperine as a potent CYP3A4 inhibitor in very small doses, and berberine in large doses to inhibit CYP2D6 and CYP2C9. I also plan to research filtered black pepper tea in conjunction with berberine.
Hello, my name is Corey and SWIM has been reading about Oilahuasca via numerous forums…69ron's forum, drugs-forum, psychonaut, and HerbPedia. SWIM plans on experimenting with Elemi, Nutmeg, Sassafras, Sweet Basil, Parsley Seed and any other essential oils that can produce psychedelic and other psychoactive effects. Does anyone recommend any other essential oils? Also, is using the SWIM acronym necessary on this forum for these oils as none are illegal/controlled (except sassafras)?
Is the information on the Herbpedia pages up to date and thus credible? If not, can someone point SWIM in the direction of up-to-date research regarding diet, enzyme protocol, and active essential oil dosages? SWIM is going to buy these oils and enzyme inhibitors/inducers as well as other supplements than can aid in oilahuasca activation. Perhaps we could make a page for each oil (nutmeg, elemi, sassafras, Sweet Basil, Parsley, etc.) with recommendation for diet, enzyme supplementation, and dosage for each oil. A protocol for each oil's uniqueness, if you will.
Are there any other foods that should be restricted? SWIM found a couple of other foods listed on another forum that were not on the HerbPedia article. These include avoiding Turmeric, Valerian Root, Black Pepper, Cayenne, Cinnamon, Curcumin, Ginkgo Biloba, Pomegranate, Pummelo, Quercetin, Saint John's Wort, White Grapefruit, Eugenol, Starfruit Juice, and all toasted/charred/broiled foods for 1-2 days prior to dosage. A lot of these (black pepper, cinnamon, cayenne, starfruit, pomegranate, valerian) are listed as activators on the herbpedia site, so SWIM was confused.
SWIM noticed that there are two major methods of ingestion, the BP3 and PEA3. Both are similar except for the 3rd step. Via the BP3, one drinks 5-10 grams of filtered black pepper tea, while via the PEA3 method, one takes 300-700 mg phenylehylamine HCL and 200 mg rutin. Has anyone tried using both methods at the same time? Which method is preferred?
As per the cinnamon oil, which is preferred: Cinnamon Bark (Cinnamomum zeylanicum) or Cassia? It says true cinnamon on HerbPedia…is this referring to Cinnamon Bark?
It also mentions how transdermal application may be more effective. Has there been any further research regarding this method of experimentation? Do you still have to utilize the oilahuasca activation methods? Where on the body does one apply it? Same dosage as oral? Are Carrier oils used such as castor, hemp, sesame, coconut, or olive?
Has anyone experimented with the inhalation method via oils vaporized though a diffuser? If so, please list dosages, enyzme inhibitors/inducers used, etc.
What do people think of using Coffee and/or Yerba Mate with oilahuasca. Is it drunken with enzymes inhibitors/deducers (stage 2) or with the allylbenzene oils (stage 3) or after stage 3? SWIM has read coffee/yerba mate is best drunken 30-60 minutes beforehand and also seen where it is best drunken with the allylbenzene essential oils.
SWIM has also read that taking 800 mg of Cayenne Pepper boosts the effects of the oils. If so, how long after should one take it? Has anyone taken Cayenne to help potentiate before?
How many drops of allylbenzene oils (elemi, nutmeg, sweet basil, sassafras, parsley seed) should SWIM try first? I have seen it listed in mg but not in drops…Is there a conversion from mg to drops…this would be determinant on specific gravity, would it not?
Is it important to eat a small amount of food at Stages 1, Stages 2, and Stages 3 to increase absorption? Maybe something high in fat/protein like nuts, peanut butter, or some lecithin?
SWIM has read about extraction techniques for certain chemicals (mainly elemicin) from elemi, nutmeg, etc. Is this worth doing vs. taking the whole oil itself?
What sources do you recommend for your essential oils and/or supplements. I have been planning on using mountain rose herbs, young living, and a few others.
SWIM wants to experiment with all of these oils…SWIM has devised a method based on the knowledge he has accrued the last few days.
48 hours prior to Oilahuasca allylbenzene dosage: SWIM will follow the dietary guidelines posted on HerbPedia:
Folic Acid aka Vitamin B9 will be taken for all 4 days prior and day of using allylbenzene oils.
L-Lysine will be taken for all 4 days prior and day of (3 hours before) using allylbenzene oils.
25 hours before allylbenzene ingestion: SWIM will take 230 mg (7 drops) of cinnamon bark essential oil.
1 hour before allylbenzene ingestion: SWIM will take 196 mg mg (6 drops) of cinnamon bark essential oil. Also take 1500 mg of Glucosamine HCL and 50-100 mg Vitamin D3 Supplement (I read that it's best to take D3 with cinnamon bark oil).
30 minutes before allylbenzene ingestion: SWIM will take 540 mg Black Seed Oil, 208 mg of 50% EGCG, 200 mg Kudzu Root Extract, 61 mg of valerian root EO from China, 0.8 mg Vitamin B9, 200 mg Pomegranate 40% Ellagic Acid Extract, 100 mg Rooibos 20% Gallic Acid Extract, 50 mg Vitamin B3, 1-3 drops Nepalese Calamus EO, 5-10 drops of Star Anise EO from China, 5-10 drops of Anise Seed EO. SWIM has decided not to use Clove Leaf EO or German Chamomile EO at this time, but may in the future. SWIM may drink with yerba mate or coffee here. I am unsure which stage is best for Coffee/Yerba Mate.
Take Allylbenzene Essential Oils (How many drops should SWIM try?) such as Elemi, Sassafras, Nutmeg, Sweet Basil, and Parsley Seed with a cup of Coffee/Yerba Mate, 1500 mg of Glucosamine HCL and either 5-10 grams of Black Pepper tea or 300-700 mg phenylehylamine HCl and 200 mg of Rutin.
How long after allylbenzene ingestion should SWIM take 800 mg of Cayenne?
Should SWIM eat food right after taking the activators and/or allylbenzene essential oils?
SWIM will also take Glucosamine HCL throughout the experience to boost effects. Are there any other supplements SWIM should take during experience? Something high in Vitamin C, perhaps?
SWIM will also exercise after allylbenzene ingestion a bit to help potentiate…
First, SWIM wants to experiment with sassafras essential oil (please find me a source!). Any advice for this particular oil regarding activation techniques?
Hi Corey,
First, my apologies for the very late response. I have extremely limited time these days so I don't visit forums like I used to. I work on this project periodically, and make updates to this site very infrequently when there's new important information available.
I'll address this question, as I believe it's the most important to answer, and I have very limited time at the moment.
Is the information on the Herbpedia pages up to date and thus credible?
The information is being updated slowly. I don't want to add anything new that's not been thoroughly tested or backed by solid facts.
There's ongoing sporadic research being done by various individuals, mostly from people wanting to remain anonymous. The vast majority of the people that contact me via Herbpedia don't post on public forums. In the early days of Oilahuasca, a lot of people were frustrated with the lack of results they had. Most people did not achieve any success whatsoever. Failures were probably in the 95% range. Because of that, the Oilahuasca subject became very controversial, so a lot of forums did not welcome Oilahuascatopic discussions. That's one of the reasons Herbpedia was created.
The single most important bit of recent research stems from tests done using berberine and steviosides. Berberine has greatly increased activation success rates, and reduced the amount of allylbenzenes needed for activation. To this date it's the most powerful activator I am aware of. Steviosides are great to use as UGT2B7 inhibitors. They are proven to be primary substrates of UGT2B7 in humans. Although not yet proven to act as inhibitors in human subjects, since they are proven primary substrates of UGT2B7 in humans, it stands to reason that they will work as competitive inhibitors. Both berberine and steviosides have received a lot of praise from various health organizations, because of their numerous health benefits. So it's great to see these become useful as Oilahuasca activator admixtures.
Another bit of information that has recently changed is that the P450 enzyme CYP2C9 is no longer considered beneficial. In addition to 1'-hydroxylating allylbenzenes it was shown to O-demethylate compounds, an action that is detrimental. Berberine is proven to fairly potently inhibit CYP2C9 in human test subjects, but has been shown to work really well as an activator. This data very clearly shows that CYP2C9 should be inhibited. Tests continue narrowing down the beneficial target P450 enzymes. The current tests I am aware of show that CYP2E1 is probably one of the most important P450 enzymes to induce. CYP2E1 can 1'-hydroxylate allylbenzenes and is not known to O-demethylate compounds. I have noted from hundreds of tests that anything that inhibits CYP2E1 will pull down Oilahuasca success rates.
One problem in the past was that a lot of herbs and supplement inhibitor/inducer data was taken from in vitro tests. For the most part in vitro tests are nearly worthless. Many potent in vitro enzyme inhibitors/inducers turned out to have no effects when tested in humans. So a lot of the previously recommended inhibitors/inducers where either ineffective, or only slightly so. I have since concentrated my research focusing on inhibitors and inducers that have been proven to work in human test subjects. I still use some in vitro test data as a guide to potentially useful inhibitors/inducers, when real human test case data is not available, but I try not to rely on it.
I can't create a new thread, and I'm not sure the best place to put this. Apologies.
I just tried elemi oil for the first time earlier today with no effects at all. The oil I have shows 15.6% elemicin/elemol the GCMS shows them co-eluding. So I don't know exactly how much of each was in there. There was no iso-elemicin listed, and no eucalyptol with 98.42% recognition. I followed the diet for 2.5 days before consuming. This was on an empty stomach.
Here is a trip report by memory, next time I'll actually take notes.
@T-10 I took about 4 grams of Twinnings pure chamomile tea. I do not know for certain this is German chamomile, but the pictures used on the box and their website are of the German species, not roman. German chamomile flowers more rapidly and is more widely grown, so I would assume more chamomile teas are of the German variety, and it wasn't marketed as a "sleepy" tea, all leading me to believe it's German.
@T-9 I drank about half of the cup of black pepper tea made from about 4 grams of pepper strained well. Swallowed a teaspoon of coconut oil and a bit of milk.
@T-0 I took 1 gram of steviosides, with 500mg berberine, and 15 drops of whole elemi oil. Taken with coffee and some milk. I took one bite of a sandwich.
@T-5 I re-steeped the chamomile and drank it again.
@t-45 I dropped 3 drops Rosemary EO, 12 drops Elemi oil and two drops nutmeg oil, mixed with mineral oil and rubbed onto my thighs. I then wrapped my thighs with plastic wrap in an effort to get more absorption, not sure if this actually helped.
@t-50 I try vaporizing a few drops of elemi and a drop of nutmeg at a very low temperature (so I didn't choke myself), I put the oil on some cotton, stuck cotton in vape and inhaled directly.
Shortly after I vaped some Cannabis because at this point I was feeling nothing at all. Milk was occasionally drank throughout.
I have a very high tolerance to hallucinogens in general, but it doesn't seem to take extra to get me off baseline usually, it's just that the curve for me is much steeper once that's reached. This did not get me off baseline. It did get me thinking though. I started pouring over all the posts in my head and I started remembering mentions of iso-elemicin potentially making things stronger, and then I thought, what if it is only iso-elemicin that is at work. iso-elemicin gets extracted with elemicin, and it is even in the "pure" elemicin products. So I got up out of bed because I couldn't stop wondering about this and I started to do some research. I found this. I can't post links, but if you google leminger's scalines you should find it easily
Which is extremely interesting and strongly supports my theory. It's a short read and an extremely relevant one. The structure of iso-elemicin is very possibly psychedelic and very possibly and extremely potent psychedelic, it could potentially be the ONLY psychedelic compound in elemi oil. Elemicin could very possibly get turned into a psychedelic compound to some degree in some people as well, but I think that this theory deserves exploration.
The structure of iso-elemicin closely resembles the structure of other chemicals that give the feelings elemi oil can give, while elemicin's structure is less likely to be active in such a way.
I would love to hear feedback on the theory and if anyone has any advice on getting elemi/nutmeg to work for me. I plan to try again on wednesday with a much higher dose, niacinimide, and much mor chamomile, but I'd like to try transdermal, I didn't enjoy the burps. I saw mixed thoughts on icyhot and menthol. Besides DMSO, what delivery matrix might work best?
/forum/t-617855/oilahuasca-activators#post-